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old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

RedPillow
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Yup, i know that, but why it is so hard then?

Im studying to be computer-secure-expert-guy and i got lots of guestions

Memory editors are easily blockable, an debuggers too i think, but i still dont get the idea of inject-protection, where did you learned to protect your game for it (just a little bit even)?

EDIT: Why don`t you block people using editors bu the programs icon? that will give people some more work to hack the resources o.O

Punkbuster, hackshield and gameguard are just piece of crap, all they do is load very long and ban innocent players.

I think you have made your protections very clever, you have no "punkbuster" or anything like that, the secure is in-game and not some lowsy "pay 200$/month-secure"

But in my opinion, game-makers should think their protections in other sight of view, for example speedhacks can be protected with mp_trace, so maybe, for example radar-hack could be protected by somway else, clients must get the player-location data from somewhere, so could it be possible to disable the enemy-team-location-datatransfer-thing , so opposing team get absolutely no location data from opposing team, shouldn`t that make impossible to make radar-hacks? i mean instead of making 3 years some wannabe-secure which will get bypassed in 2 days the secures could be though differently, i think the key of protecting games from hackers is in Server ---> client data-transfer and vice versa. Am I even close?

P.S What you think DC, wasn`t that a BIT stupid actually to have speedmod-command (if we dont talk about luas) vecause now players don`t know does someone speedhack or not?

Btw, i googled some forums and they expect that you will make build 1.0.0.5 very soon cuz of minebug, so the most "best hackers" are not making hacks for this build

EDIT: If i have got this right, you actually WANT that some people make hacks, so you can leran from them and make better protections?

o.O why i am such an agent
edited 1×, last 15.04.09 10:58:32 pm

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

sonnenschein
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Jonzku777: You can say if the players hack. Servers need to say somewhere that they have added a command or the Admin is just showing off. You surely know that someone who walks fast in "wF | Only Dust" server is a hacker (or a admin/mod) . But I think hacking is really pointless when you could just host your own server and make a command to have you walking really fast. Of course people wouldn't come, but hey, you have bots!

*EDIT* Maybe I don't have mind of the hacker, but I thing the target now will be unsecured servers which have low passwords. (Rcon)

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

Zune5
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@Jonzku: MP - Trace works terribly. It moves everyone else to random location and it sucks.
Yeah. It's hard to make a anti-cheat for CS2D because there doesn't seem to be any codes out there. The only way this will work if DC adds a different type of program.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

Lee
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But in my opinion, game-makers should think their protections in other sight of view, for example speedhacks can be protected with mp_trace, so maybe, for example radar-hack could be protected by somway else, clients must get the player-location data from somewhere, so could it be possible to disable the enemy-team-location-datatransfer-thing , so opposing team get absolutely no location data from opposing team, shouldn`t that make impossible to make radar-hacks? i mean instead of making 3 years some wannabe-secure which will get bypassed in 2 days the secures could be though differently, i think the key of protecting games from hackers is in Server ---> client data-transfer and vice versa. Am I even close?


Nope, if you take away all location packets from different teams then the opposing team would not only not be able to see the enemy on radar if they are hacking, but they will not be able to see them even when they are within the viewframe of the player. Which would create the problem of not being able to play the game at all.

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players don`t know does someone speedhack or not


CS2D uses a variable to control the absolute speed (deduction), the players may not know if someone is speedhacking but the server will. The main problem facing any speedhack protection is ability to create an error range, only when the speed offset is larger than an error margin can the server conclude whether or not the player is hacking, creating this error margin is no easy task. The only effective way to ensure that the margin can be predictable is to minimize the time interval between the position sampling. (IE: v = d/t, d = |Resolve( <x, y> )| which gives a polar coordinate). The ideal interval would be obviously dt where dME also approaches 0, as t => 0, since this isn't possible, we assume dt = time(framerate) and all speed are build on top of that (which drives the move event). Given this, the only effective way of countering speedhacks then is to do a root of a 2nd degree function (resolving the position) and then checking it against an acceptable distance value. Do this at every time that the frame refreshes and you'll find that the server will begin to lag. Of course, when you have t !=> 0 and instead go to some constant such as 0.1, then yes, this will reduce the lag, but then it's harder to predict the real instantaneous speed since you now have to deal with the margin of error (as t=>0, ME => 0 as well), which is why it's not really plausible to counter speedhacking.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

DC
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clients must get the player-location data from somewhere, so could it be possible to disable the enemy-team-location-datatransfer-thing , so opposing team get absolutely no location data from opposing team

I thought of this solution too of course. It's very obvious. You could just send enemy positions to players when the enemies are on their screen or very close to the area of their screen. But what about enemies shooting from far away or what about the step sounds? I would still have to send position for this stuff and this makes the whole thing pretty useless.
(I also decided that I'm not going to spend much time and effort on security stuff in future)

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P.S What you think DC, wasn`t that a BIT stupid actually to have speedmod-command (if we dont talk about luas) vecause now players don`t know does someone speedhack or not?

You could say that about many commands. Like giving weapons, setting the position, setting money, health armor. Uninformed ppl might think that these are all hacks! However should we renounce anything just because of cheaters/hackers? NO!

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EDIT: If i have got this right, you actually WANT that some people make hacks, so you can leran from them and make better protections?

what the.. In this case you got it HORRIBLY WRONG!
all I want is that every f*cking hacker/cheater dies in the most painful way possible.

I'm absolutely NOT interested in any anti-hack/cheat or security crap. I'm developing games and not security software. Do you know how much time I already wasted with stupid security issues? Far too much I would say.

Moreover I do not learn anything from hackers. Destroying stuff / hacking in a simple freeware game like CS2D can be achieved by idiots without any programming knowledge. Most CS2D hackers are certainly fags which could not even program a simple breakout game...
edited 3×, last 16.04.09 11:23:22 am

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

RedPillow
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Thank you for your answers, but if we talk about myself, if i had a game i would kinda want that people (even at first) try to hack it so i can get as much knoweledge of styles they hack as possible.

But I still think that the hacking-security of games is just about logic, if you find a very clever way to secure it (without loss on any other part of the game) you might get it very secure.

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Destroying stuff / hacking in a simple freeware game like CS2D can be achieved by idiots without any programming knowledge. Most CS2D hackers are certainly fags which could not even program a simple breakout game...


Your game can`t be THAT insecure?
But what if for example you make a secure which is mae like this:

1. All the memory changes and stuff can only be done with cs2d client or server. (or something like that.)

2.If i am right or you know little more about first phase, wouldn`t it make cs2d(example) only hackable with cs2d client?

3.And if you can only hack it with the original client, which will lead to client modifications.

4.And, wouldn`t it be easy then to just prevent cs2d from runnig or something if game is modifed in any way?

That sounded too easy but might this "bottle-neck" - secureing work for real?


P.S DC, what do you think overall of this lua-addition? will you actually decrease your work on stuff that people can do with lua like commands and stuff or will you keep up like before?
In my opinion, the editor-updates are very "must be".

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a simple breakout game


Good addition to "Stuff" part of this site?

Cya.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

DC
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P.S DC, what do you think overall of this lua-addition? will you actually decrease your work on stuff that people can do with lua like commands and stuff or will you keep up like before?
In my opinion, the editor-updates are very "must be".

there is not one single reason to decrease the work on Lua related stuff.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

Lee
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Jonzku777 has written
But what if for example you make a secure which is mae like this:

1. All the memory changes and stuff can only be done with cs2d client or server. (or something like that.)

2.If i am right or you know little more about first phase, wouldn`t it make cs2d(example) only hackable with cs2d client?

3.And if you can only hack it with the original client, which will lead to client modifications.

4.And, wouldn`t it be easy then to just prevent cs2d from runnig or something if game is modifed in any way?

That sounded too easy but might this "bottle-neck" - secureing work for real?


1. They are, the important and none time-dependent events are all handled serverside. However, certain events, move in particular, must be handled on the client side for the sake of a smooth game. The server will be updated on the positions but it does not control the speed of the client itself. (The alternative to this is having mp_trace on.)

4. Not exactly. Traditionally, it's not that hard to manage the inner workings of the program in run-time on C dependent projects, especially given that C or C++ is a medium-highlevel language. However, Blitz does something unique. There's a reason that there haven't been a successful decompilation of a blitz program, all of the names of the variables are lost when the program is executed, and to top it all off, the blitz library itself will also have its names jumbled in as random strings. It's due to this that not only can you not tell where's what in game simply using some low level tools, but at the same time you can't even tell apart the game logic from its dependencies. Which is why in most cases, all of the hacks towards CS2D are created on runtime by targeting the OS allocation of the memory rather than manipulating the executable itself. Sure, there are DLL injections around as well, but those are mere wrappers for memory modifiers.

old *new* comand in console

-Skull_
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Well, i would like to have a Command Called "Playerlist" when you type this command in console. It will let you see the player IP# USGN#. This command is work without RCon

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

DC
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there already is a command for such a list: listplayers
however you do not see the usgn ids and ips as client due to security and privacy reasons and this is not going to change.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

horus
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For strategic reasons, how about a one-way obstacle? Like... people can shoot through the top but not any other way? That or just a one-way obstacle for sight instead of shooting, if you get what I mean.
Also, how about adding a breakable floor thing? There is breakable walls, so why not floors? They could be destroyed the same way barbed wires and gate fields would, or just make it damage-only [nades] or give it a certain amount of health that goes away little by little whenever people walk over it.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

chuico123
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horus has written
Also, how about adding a breakable floor thing? There is breakable walls, so why not floors? They could be destroyed the same way barbed wires and gate fields would, or just make it damage-only [nades] or give it a certain amount of health that goes away little by little whenever people walk over it.


are saying something like put a starting barbed wire or gatefield via editor? or a floor that if it takes too much ground based damage it falls and the are becomes a deadly square? like breaking a bridge over an lava river

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

redmonky91
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horus has written
Also, how about adding a breakable floor thing? There is breakable walls, so why not floors? They could be destroyed the same way barbed wires and gate fields would, or just make it damage-only [nades] or give it a certain amount of health that goes away little by little whenever people walk over it.


I could see this being implemented if a buildable floor is added as well. Use a grate sprite for the buildable, maybe?

Suggestion: Visible damage states for walls and stuff. Like when it is at 75% health, cracks appear... 50% the cracks are bigger, some fire damage... 25% huge cracks and burned all over... etc. Maybe for turrets some smoke at around 50% would work.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

chuico123
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redmonky91 has written
Suggestion: Visible damage states for walls and stuff. Like when it is at 75% health, cracks appear... 50% the cracks are bigger, some fire damage... 25% huge cracks and burned all over... etc. Maybe for turrets some smoke at around 50% would work.


the lag... it scares me

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

GrandTheftAuto4
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How about adding more weapons? Like a M60 or a XM8.
Add more details to the "tiles".
Add the players of CS:CZ, Spetsnaz and Midwest Militia.
edited 1×, last 19.04.09 01:32:42 am

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

chuico123
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GrandTheftAuto4 has written
Add more details to the "tiles".


the tiles doesnt need more deatails, but if you want a HD tileset go photoshop

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

horus
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In addition to the floor for env_breakable and func_dynwall and the one-way obstacles, I suggest that you re-introduce the no_FOW entity in the editor. In a map that needs fog-of-war but not in a single area shouldn't mean that the admin should turn off the fog-of-war just for that single exception.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

RedPillow
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Editor suggestions (packed up):

1.Tile-rotation.
2.HD-tileset
3.One-way shootable and walkable tiles.
4.Breakable floor.
5.Ability to put barbedwires,gatefields,turrets and mines on editor.
6.Env_noweapons ---> You could make "safe-points" with this.
7.Map-rotation.
8.Sprites which can move between certain tiles like :

#-----O----# O=sprite which is moving between those tiles.
Remember: Vertical AND Horizontal - moving.

9.Visible damage actors to tiles (cracks,burns,rust)
10.New tileset --> CS2D_Future.
11.New tileset --> CS2D_WW-II.
12.Single-area Fog-of-war (ON/OFF).

Not-editor:

1.Turret III 15 000$ and Turret II 10 000$ to building menu.
2.2 Gut-bombs/zombie.
3.Some fixes to server-connecting and items-loading.
4.Sounds load awfully slow, some fixes to that?
5.WW-II-weapons like: Kar98k, garands, springfield, thompson, mp 40, Mosin-nagat, Ptrs-41,....
6.TRIP-BOMBS! You can put them to a wall, and when someone walks past it, it`ll explode!.

TTThanks.

old Re: CS2D Max Suggestions V2

ohaz
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editor:
10 and 11, you can do yourself
not editor:
1 is really shit.... turrets HAVE to be upgraded, they would be too unfair if not
5. NOOOO they weapons are enough... I don't want to play CoD 2D, I want to play cs2d
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